Transcript for Up Next - Episode 8: Ziggy Ramo The Storyteller

Courtney Ammenhauser: The Sydney Opera House acknowledges the Gadigal people, traditional custodians of Tubowgule, the land on which the Opera House stands. We honour the long Gadigal history of gathering and storytelling, and acknowledge the strength and resilience of First Nations people and communities past and present.

Ziggy Ramo: You know, as iconic as the Opera House stages are, like the sails are even more iconic. If I was a young kid and I got to see an Indigenous man on top of it, telling our, you know, version of our lived experiences like that would just be so meaningful.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Hey, I’m Courtney Ammenhauser and this is Up Next! A podcast full of sit down chats with the most exciting artists and performers coming through the doors of the Sydney Opera House.

Since the Opera House has been going strong for 50 years… In every episode of this podcast we showcase someone who we think is destined for icon status in the next 50 years.

So join me backstage at one of the most iconic venues in the world.

In the last few years, Ziggy Ramo has basically made a second home out of the Opera House. In 2020, at the height of the pandemic, he premiered his first album, Black Thoughts. It was a livestream in the Joan Sutherland Theatre with no audience. The performance was full bodied rapping and heartfelt truth telling. It packed a punch about the dark side of Australian history. NME called it “the most important Australian album of the year”.

Ziggy came back in 2021 to film the video clip for his version of Kev Carmody and Paul Kelly’s famous track From Little Things Big Thing Grow. He climbed on top of the Opera House sails at sunrise to perform the song out in the open, high above the harbour.

In this episode of Up Next, we chat about his new album, Sugar Coated Lies, and his recent turn as an actor and composer in the Australian drama Black Snow.

What I love about Ziggy is his thoughtful, intelligent approach to sharing his story and the stories of First Nations Australians. He has a powerful ability to have hard but necessary conversations, which he continually brings to his artistry in new and creative ways.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Hey, Ziggy. Welcome back to the Opera house.

Ziggy Ramo: Thank you. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to be here.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah. You're no stranger to this place. You've done a few things here. In 2020, you launched your debut album, Black Thoughts, here, you performed on the forecourt. You've been on the sails. You've been everywhere, pretty much. What keeps bringing you back?

Ziggy Ramo: It's a pretty kind of iconic stage, right? Like, yeah, I think it's a dream to be able to kind of present on, you know, one of the most prestigious stages in the country. So, I mean, as long as the Opera House will have me, I'll keep on trying to do things for sure.

Courtney Ammenhauser: When you were filming the video clip for Little Things, you were on top of the Opera House. You also directed the clip. What was your creative thinking when you came up with that concept?

Ziggy Ramo: It was pretty audacious. The whole thing was really serendipitous. I was supposed to perform a Like A Version and for a myriad of reasons that didn't end up happening. But I'd started kind of learning From Little Things Big Things Grow. As that process happened, these words kind of just started falling out and, lo and behold, I had the audacity to go ahead and give myself the permission to rewrite the song. And so I had kind of fallen in love with it and really wanted to be able to share it with people. And I spoke to my manager, Courtney, and I was like, “do you reckon there's any chance that like this might happen?” And she was like, “Actually, I know Bill, Paul’s manager. Maybe I could reach out.” And we were sitting in the car and literally that car ride Bill emailed me and he said, “Hey, Paul is a big fan. Do you want to perform at the New Year's Eve concert he does? We'd love to have you.” And I was like, What the hell?

So I emailed Bill back straight away and I was like, “Yes, I would love to. And also, while I have your attention. I have this little thing.” So yeah, I got connected with Paul and he was just so humble and gracious and giving and gave me the permission to go ahead and do it. And we worked really hard on the song. Like, I think we started in November and went through to like January.

Once I actually had the song finished and I listened to it, I just started getting this vision of me standing on top of the Opera house. I don't know why or how I thought it would be achievable. I think the thing for me is that I knew how iconic From Little Things, Big Things Grow I was. And I also knew how iconic the Sydney Opera House is. And I was kind of putting this side of history out there that, you know, hasn't been heard and maybe hasn't been put in those kinds of spaces before. So I made some pretty outlandish phone calls and I was just like, here's this song that I have and here's this idea. Is there any chance and it kind of got taken up the line and it came back with a yes, which I didn't really think would be possible. And then it was just a process of really storyboarding and having a clear idea of what we were trying to get. Because, you know, you don't get, you don't get ten days on top of the sails. You’ve got one morning. You know, you've got to make it happen.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah, absolutely. And I heard that you had to pass a physical test before you were even allowed to climb on top of the sails. What did that involve? Because I'm picturing, you know, a high school beep test. What was involved in this?

Ziggy Ramo: So I had to go to this physio. Physio, she was so lovely. And she started by saying, like, this is going to seem so bizarre, but you're just going to have to trust me. And there were all of these like positions she had to, like, simulate to show that I would be able to make the climb. Because when you climb up the sails, like there are all of these like little holes you have to climb through and twist and turn and like it's just a bit of a maze. So out of context when you're not there, and someone's like trying to explain it to you in a room, it was so bizarre. It was all just like a little bit of a whirlwind. And then, yeah, luckily enough, I passed and then got to do the climb at like 4:30 in the morning. And it was just so surreal.

Courtney Ammenhauser: I bet. Wow.

Ziggy Ramo: I had to, like, wear these harness underneath the shirt. And so I cut like this thing out the back where like the harness could come out of. So it didn't look all bulky and stuff, I was like wearing these super tight, intense, like, skinny compression sports stuff, then like duct tape down really hard. So it was, like

Courtney Ammenhauser: Strapped in.

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, it was, like, so uncomfortable and so cold because it was like five, 6 a.m. and it was cold and I could hardly breathe, but it was all all in the name of art.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah. Rihanna saw you do that and then was like, I want to be up there.

Ziggy Ramo: Hold my beer. I see you Rihanna.

Courtney Ammenhauser: What an inspired idea.

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah.

Courtney Ammenhauser: And did the test come in handy?

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, massively. Like, that's what was so funny. Like, as we were climbing, I was like,

Courtney Ammenhauser: Oh, that was this shape.

Ziggy Ramo: That's this shape. That's that shape. Yeah. I mean, like, you get up to the top and it opens up and it's just like, yeah, it's breathtaking.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Especially at that time of day.

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if this is allowed to be aired or not, but everyone who climbs up signs it. And there's like these signatures from like.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Dish who's been up there.

Ziggy Ramo: So far, like from people who've worked there, like from the moment it opened. Yeah, I like signed right next to Jackie Chan. And then during our Aboriginal flag and I didn't see any before then, so I was like, That's pretty, pretty cool.

Courtney Ammenhauser: You've left your mark

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Nice. I want to go back to the premiere of Black Thoughts. You had a smoking ceremony on the stage for that. What did that mean to you?

Ziggy Ramo: It was pretty surreal, honestly. At the time, Sophie Young and Alistair Hill, they were kind of my like, main people I was running point with while developing that show. They were pretty great. On one of our first calls, Alistair Hill asked me. like, “What's your Blue Skies dream vision of how this show could go?” And I asked him, like, “Do you mean that honestly? Like, can I really go for it?” And like, he wanted to hear it. And that was one of the, kind of, first things that was a really important thing because it was like in the middle of this pandemic and there was so much heaviness and weight and angst and displacement. Yeah, it was just a very charged time. So the first time being able to step on the Opera House stage and present the debut of Black Thoughts, it just felt vital to be able to cleanse the space and start on the right foot by paying homage and acknowledgement. We did like a rehearsal to camera and it was a bit scattered, honestly, and then to just pause and literally smell the burning of fire and the crackling of the leaves like under the flame and receive a Welcome to Country. You just felt the whole room go still. And that was so big because then we all jumped on stage and like performed and it just couldn't have gone better.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah, go and check it out if you haven't seen it, you've just released your second album, Sugar Coated Lies. You actually wrote the album about four years ago, right?

Ziggy Ramo: Yes.

Courtney Ammenhauser: A lot has happened in the last four years. Pandemic, the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, of course, your fame has grown as well, and I assume you as a person, too. What's it like releasing it now four years later after all that has happened?

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, I mean, it seems to be an accidental trend where I write albums and sit on them. I mean, Black Thoughts went through a similar thing.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah.

Ziggy Ramo: Prior to putting Black Thoughts out, I thought I was going to put out Sugar Coated Lies in, kind of, 2020.

Courtney Ammenhauser: So you had them both there?

Ziggy Ramo: Yes, I did. But I’d chronologically written Black Thoughts and then written Sugar Coated Lies. And so I think what I really learned about Black Thoughts was, you know, when you put the art forward and you kind of are open to when the art makes sense, like you just kind of trust your gut and go for it. And with 2020 and everything that it was, there was just a really clear moment for me where I just got clarity and it was like, okay, Black Thoughts needs to be out in the world now.

Courtney Ammenhauser: This is the more urgent one.

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, exactly. And then that kind of happened with Sugar Coated Lies. Kind of like eight months of last year for me was working on a project called Black Snow, which I was acting in and co-composed the score. And that kind of show looks at the Australian South Sea Island experience because I'm also an Australian South Sea Islander. My great great grandfather, Kwailiu was enslaved and brought over to work away on the sugar cane fields. It was like 62,000 South Sea Islanders who were brought across. And, you know, it's this part of our history that we don't ever really talk about or reflect. And Sugar Coated Lies is an album, you know, it's exploring that lineage also in a nuanced way. Like the whole process of Sugar Coated Lies was about erasure of history in the same way that has happened to Australian South Sea Islander history. So it was about sugar coating these songs so that they feel polished and melodic and they can be played on radio and all of that. But deep below it is like this insidious thing that's bubbling. And I say all of that to say when I was working on Black Snow, it's this genre murder mystery pace with Travis Fimmel, who is the super good looking man from Vikings. And you come into it and you're watching it, and then underneath the surface, you start to learn about this community of Australian South Sea Islanders and Sugar Coated Lies obviously was written years before that, but it felt so paralleled and connected in that.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Why was it already called Sugar Coated Lies?

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah. Wow.

Ziggy Ramo: Which was like such a spin out.

Courtney Ammenhauser: That's wild because you're there and it's the sugar cane industry in North Queensland.

Ziggy Ramo: Well, literally.

Courtney Ammenhauser: That is just so serendipitous or something, of like, I don't know that timing, that's an amazing story.

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, and I think that’s the whole thing of trying to remain open, you can’t control any of that

Courtney Ammenhauser: Sugar Coated Lies covers a lot of heavy content around mental health and intergenerational trauma of First Nations people. And you talk about the process of putting your feelings and experiences into an album as being ‘therapeutic’. Can you tell me about that?

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, In Black Thoughts it was so much about… I mean, it's pretty morbid, but there's a line in the last song called Kids and I say “This obituary that I filled full of truths can now become very handy”. And I didn't know how long I would be around because like, how much the intergenerational trauma was impacting me. My mental health was, you know, so frail that it just didn't feel like I would be here. And with Black Thoughts, it was like, well, if I'm not going to be around, I'd like to at least leave my understanding of these systems and institutions and, you know, a lens that isn't often heard. So Black Thoughts was so much about the external, you know, these big frameworks and mechanisms and systems of oppression. It was really explicit and it was really clear, but it was about external. With Sugar Coated Lies it was about, you know, Ziggy Ramo as a character existing in that context. So, Sugar Coated Lies is about going inside and internal. I kind of showed you what the context is that I live, and now I'm going to show you how it makes me feel.

Courtney Ammenhauser: You've described wanting your music to be the antidote to apathy and your first album, Black Thoughts, I feel like it did it in a way that's very sonically big, whereas with Sugar Coated Lies it's more subtle and more nuanced. But, you know, they're both taking these different approaches. I wanted to know what changed in you between those two albums and the writing process of them.

Ziggy Ramo: I mean, I changed, like, right? I grew, I got older, I experienced different things. But the purpose is the same in that like, you know, I care for Country. That's what has happened in my lineage for 50,000 years. So I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's to care for a Country. It's to leave this space better than I found it. And on an individual level, like just as a person who's walking around, I don't want to like, make the same thing right? It's like eating the same thing for dinner every day. Like, eventually you grow tired of that. And so Black Thoughts was done to me. That was that work. So when I went to start writing The Next Body of Work, it was about like, where could I take that same purpose? But, you know, explore it in a different way? I think I guess the growth side of things is that it was about going into songwriting. Black Thoughts was so much to me about like, I am a lyricist and I'm really good at rapping, like from just a craft perspective. Whereas when I moved into Sugar Coated Lies, like I started producing and I, you know, as much as I grew up listening to Nas and Common, like I also was a kid in the late nineties singing Britney Spears. So, like, I love pop and I love melody, and melody is this universal language that moves people. So I think I wanted to start taking and pulling from different spaces and figure out how that works for me. Like it wasn't about like tone policing myself to make it, like, more subtle and more palatable. It was like, I also love these monkey bars over at the playground as well. Like how would I do it?

Courtney Ammenhauser: Let's talk a bit more about Black Snow, which you've touched on already, because, yeah, your career, it's moved into this new direction. You're acting in this show. You also did the composition. How did that all come about?

Ziggy Ramo: Funnily enough, the Opera House had a little bit of a part to play in it. So Rosemary Blight, who is an executive producer on Black Snow, she had seen the Little Things music video, and when Rosemary saw that, she started to kind of join the dots of, Oh, maybe this person is interested in other mediums and other spaces. And so from there, Rose ended up going and watching the 2020 Black Thoughts performance as well. And, you know, I think I try… like I take performing very seriously and it is a performance in every, you know, aspect of the word. So when Rose saw those two pieces of work, she got pretty fixated on the idea of me being incorporated into two Black Snow. So they reached out in like May, and we started shooting in June. So it was like… it was like a two week turnaround.

Courtney Ammenhauser: That must have been a bit of a whirlwind.

Ziggy Ramo: Massively, massively. But I think it was, kind of, also so good because I kind of couldn't overthink. It was just about instinct and storytelling and in the deep end and trying not to drown. Yeah, came on kind of solely on the acting thing with the intention to be able to talk about composition. And as I was on set, it just started to become really obvious to me how I thought the score should sound. Because this story, it doesn't try to tell every story of Australian South Sea Islanders. It's not about the entire diaspora. Like it's zoomed in on a single girl of a single family. And that family is from Tanna island, and Tanna Island’s in Vanuatu. And you don't actually see Tanna Island in the show because it's about like the Australian South Sea Islander community and that community’s obviously in Australia. But that lineage is derived from Tanna island. So there was such a clear thing in my mind that we could parallel the story of the Baker family through the music that like if we went to Tanna Island and were able to record, we would then take those sounds and then bring them to Australia and then we would, you know, recontextualize them and change them and manipulate them and process them so that, you know, at times they’d almost become not recognisable and different. And as the score goes over the six episodes, like the distortion and those kind of bass samples become more and more, yeah, distorted and hidden. Yeah. So I kind of felt so strong about that, but I'd obviously never composed a score before, so Rosemary ended up bringing in a beautiful composer and human Jed Palmer, who has done this a lot. This is what he does. And Jed was so open to collaboration. So I finished my last day on set in August at like 10:00 at night. And then the next morning we flew to Vanuatu and did a week of recording with family and were welcomed into the Bethel Community Village with Chief Jeffrey, and he took us all around Tanna Island and we were given these beautiful songs and songlines and furthermore given the permission to be able to use them, incorporate them and change them for the context of, of a score. And so after about a week of recording, we went to work on doing like 3 hours of original music and in a couple of months. So it was pretty, pretty intense.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah, I can imagine. I mean it sounds like such an amazing experience to actually get to go and be there with the community and everything that you've just described. In terms of like the way you approach your artistic practices as a musician for your solo work. How did it feel to be working in this new way?

Ziggy Ramo: I loved it. Like I had more fun in the post-production. I think like filming, on set, like actors kind of get all of their attention because that's who people see. But what you film on set, it's kind of like getting groceries at a store and then when you go into post-production, it's about actually cooking the meal and it's like making those creative decisions about how a show will be presented. And so when I was sitting there working on the score, it was just so freeing and so liberating in a lot of ways. So sitting in this room making music invisible, I hadn’t had that kind of experience because all of the music I’d made up until this point has been attached to my face. The idea to, like, step back on stage, like while I was still in that process felt really jarring. And then I ended up performing at First and Forever, and it was like the best performance ever. So it was like, Oh, no, that's that's right. Like, I love the attention. Yeah. Look at me. Yeah.

Courtney Ammenhauser: And what was it like bringing that South Sea Islander perspective to this project? And you know, you mentioned it's not trying to tell everyone's story. It's like zoomed in. But what was it like to bring that perspective?

Ziggy Ramo: I almost felt like that was my biggest responsibility honestly. Like, yes, I was acting in it. Yes, I was writing music and all of that allowed me to be in the room. So I was quite lucky. I, like, literally sat in on like all the final mix reviews. So the way that TV's made is you go and film it and yet edit it and then you do the scoring to the edit. And then once that's done, you're also doing sound design and a bunch of stuff and then the producers and the creator will like sit in the room and make final decisions about what's working, how loud things should be, if things should stay or go. And I was able to sit in on them. And that was, I think, probably my most important work on the show, because it was about really trying to honour and ground the show in authenticity so that, you know, and this was something I would often say in the room is, you know, we're telling this story on this stage for the first time. So we get to set the precedent of what it is to tell stories about our community. You know, I dream that Black Snow opens the door for many other stories to come, but at least there's like a benchmark of: we had community consultation, we went to Tanna Island, like we included family like and had Australian South Sea Islander people sitting in the room all the way from start to go. So I think that was so important to me about the kind of foundation that we were laying down.

Courtney Ammenhauser: And where do you think you would go next with your music?

Ziggy Ramo: I know where I'm going next.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Oh dish! Scoop. Hello.

Ziggy Ramo: I mean, the next time we sit down and talk about the next album, Human, it's going to be a similar thing where I wrote it in 2021.

Courtney Ammenhauser: I was actually going to say, are you sitting on three albums right now Ziggy?

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, so the next project is called Human, and it's like both a book and an album. So each song is a chapter in a book because, you know, when I wrote Black Thoughts, it's like 8000 words and that's so lyrically dense, right? But a book is like 80,000. So like, you have so much more space and time for history and context. And by doing that, it means like the songs can be more, I guess, like reflective and nuanced in ways and Little Things is on that album. So writing Little Things kind of was this conduit to picking up the guitar and I ended up writing like nine singer songwriter folky songs, which obviously is a massive departure from, you know, what's happened prior. But I think it was about reinventing and shedding, I think, and trying to grow in a different artistic way.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah, that's so exciting to hear. Like, you know, you're moving into different genres and sounds. How is the album and the book like, how do they speak to each other? How do they coexist? You know, you said there's a chapter for each song, but can you explain how they kind of are in dialogue together?

Ziggy Ramo: Massively so like the way each chapter starts is with the written lyrics of the songs, because they're like these poems that have kind of taken shape. And then that kind of sets the thesis of each chapter. And then, you know, you've got 10,000 words to play with, going into history context and lived experience. So the way that I kind of explain each chapter is that it's almost like a Hot Dog, which is a weird analogy. But, you know.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Tell me more.

Ziggy Ramo: The bread is like the dry history context. The foundation that, you know, sets the table and keeps it all together and then the like meat is the lived experience and how that history and context interacts with the lived experience. And then your onions and sauces and condiments are my ideas about how those are in dialogue with each other. So you get the thesis from the poem, you get the hot dog from the chapter, and then you listen to the song. Because by reading the words, then reading the chapter, and then hearing it like it hits you in such a different way, because all of these little breadcrumbs that are kind of buried in the songs like you actually know, now, because you've been able to see it and read it in a different way.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Can't wait to read and listen to both.

Ziggy Ramo: Either can I!

Courtney Ammenhauser: Is there like a release date or is that still in the works?

Ziggy Ramo: I mean, like I could tell you something, but it's like, who knows with me?

Courtney Ammenhauser: Okay, fair enough.

Ziggy Ramo: When the breeze hits me at the right time.

Courtney Ammenhauser: It’s true…

Ziggy Ramo:  It's all moving in the right direction, you know, it's always the final, like five, 10% that takes the two years.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah, refining.

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, yeah.

Courtney Ammenhauser: So, Ziggy, you're writing a book. You're acting in things. You're composing scores. You're writing music. You're the multi-hyphenate.

Ziggy Ramo: Slashie

Courtney Ammenhauser: Slashie ultimate. What kind of artist do you most identify as?

Ziggy Ramo: I think it's not a medium. It's, I guess, the concept… coming from an oral culture. You know, we've had song men and women and storytellers who are gatekeepers of knowledge and of wisdom for caring for Country. And so I think because I've grown up dispossessed of those songlines because of the removal and denial of access to Country, the innate ability hasn't gone anywhere and the desire to find it is now like, more stronger than ever. So I think for me it's storyteller. I think that's why I always am drawn to, whether it's books or scores, acting or composing, it's because all of those things are about communicating a story and that is what inspires and excites me. I think for me it's really come down to a place of like, I want to see change for my community. And I know I have stories and a perspective that can help create that change. I know, like, a lot of Australians don't understand hip hop and rap as a craft and as an art form, but it's like we understand, like for mediocre guitar chords going around and around, right? Like, so I'm kind of like, well, I feel confident in my ability to shift and adapt and learn because I can tell stories. It's so much about finding the right space for the right story, and that's like the exciting pursuit for me.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Mmm. Finding that way for people to listen. This podcast is all about spotlighting artists who we think are up next. I'm keen to hear from you who are some artists that you've got your eye on or who you think are kind of changing the game right now or will be changing the game soon?

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, totally. I mean, an artist that I worked with on Sugar Coated Lies, Alice Skye, I've forever been the biggest fan, I think, like just such a beautiful transcendent voice, Alice always moves me to like another place and is also just such a beautiful person. And I mean, like Alice is already doing amazing stuff, but I'm always just like any stage that Alice can get onto, I'm always going to be there cheering for her.

Another young artist out of Perth, WA, is Mali Jose. I met Mali when I was still living in Perth. I would have been 19 or 20 and Mali was I think like 14 in high school. And I had a family friend who's friend of a friend was his school teacher. And at the time I'd like just started kind of making a little bit of noise doing music. And Mali was like playing state soccer and was also at an acting school and but also like loved music and really loved it. And so I went and caught up with him one day after school and he like, played me these demos and I was like, Oh my God. Like, because when I was at that age, I was kind of similar, but I didn't know anyone or have any kind of access into knowing what to do or how to go about it. And so when I met Mali, I was like, Oh, it's kind of like looking back in time in a way. And Mali's just been growing and growing and growing. And last month while I was in Perth, I got to hang out with Mali a lot and, you know, it's so interesting just to Yeah, I mean, it feels like so much about Up Next. And he actually just put out a song with Koby D, who's an amazing MC and it's only kind of going to be a matter of time for all of these awesome things that's going to be ahead for Mali.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Yeah, Mali’s probably sitting on a couple of albums as well.

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah, he's like, he's so much like that as well. Like he's got all the ideas.

One other artist is Vonn who’s on Sugar Coated Lies. It’s like the first stuff that Vonn’s ever put out. I met Vonn over the years and have always been such a believer in Vonn’s voice. I know music is very soon, we’ve done some writing, and yeah I’m very excited for people to get to know Vonn.

Courtney Ammenhauser: Oh yeah definitely a couple of artists to keep an eye on.

Ziggy Ramo: Yeah I over delivered if anything.

Courtney Ammenhauser: No I love it, the more the merrier. Ziggy thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Ziggy Ramo: It's such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Courtney Ammenhauser: That was rapper, songwriter, actor, musician, author, truth teller, all round superstar slashie Ziggy Ramo. You can watch Black Thoughts and Little Things on the Sydney Opera House streaming platform at stream.sydneyoperahouse.com.

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I’m Courtney Ammenhauser and this has been Up Next, a podcast from the Sydney Opera House.

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